The Catechism of the Catholic Church 2353 states: "Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young."
While I have no problem with the last sentence regarding "grave scandal" where the young (high schoolers) are involved, what about with adults who have taken the time to inform their conscience? The only "official" teaching I see against fornication is that sex is only for the good of spouses and the generation of children. But, if one agrees with the logic in the previous blog entry that sex need not always have the generation of children in mind, perhaps there is wiggle room for responsible sex between adults in certain situations. I think fornication may be good within the context of a loving relationship where both individuals believe that their action is healthy and will not cause harm, but joy & love for the other individual. I believe I have seen this situation with in certain adult relationships, though I have never seen this situation am0ng high school students.
A Faithful Catholic
25 comments:
I assume the "wiggle room" is just down the hall from the internal forum.
Actually, Terry, it's the same room. Different chairs.
Someday "Catholic" should post a bit about his actual "Catholic" bona fides.
Claiming Catholicism could well be a fraud.
Are they comfy chairs?
But I digress. You heard the man, F.C.; scan and post next Sunday's offertory envelope from your parish!
You are guys are being silly. You act as though I'm not Catholic, when I represent what about 90% of American Catholics in the pew every Sunday believe, wouldn't you agree?
I assume you're as Catholic as the next guy. Of course, the attendance figures indicate the next guy probably isn't in the pew on Sunday. At a lot of churches, the pew he isn't in isn't even a pew.
Actual Catholics do not use Nietzsche's rules of logic (summarized: The Transvaluation of All Values.)
What you did is find a very tiny minority (childless couples) and make that a rule which negates the Big Rule.
IOW, you went from the particular to the general, and then negated the general.
Not exactly a "Catholic" understanding, FC.
So yah, you oughta scan that offering-envelope.
"The only 'official' teaching I see against fornication..."
Isn't the Church teaching consistent with what is said in the New Testament on the topic?
Actually, Church teaching is not consistent with what's in the New Testament. The NT never really gives a reason against fornication, so if one makes use of the Old Testament, then it is because the woman is the property of her father and that she basically becomes worthless if she is viewed as sexually used. And while there is a sense that sex should be in marriage, there doesn't seem to be anything stated there should always be an openness to children. And one again, the overarching reason in the OT is the ownership of women by the man of the family (via it is really bad to covet a neighbor's wife, nothing is said about coveting a neighbor's husband).
Yah, right.
"...what God has put together, let no man put asunder."
"For this reason a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife..."
We're still waiting for you to demonstrate that you actually ARE a Catholic.
And the more you write, the more obscure your 'Catholicism' is...
Your kind of Catholic always thinks so.
"Actually, Church teaching is not consistent with what's in the New Testament."
That's mere assertion, which you contradict in your next sentence.
"The NT never really gives a reason against fornication..."
Even if that were true in some literal sense, you appear to concede it's "against". Church teaching explains why. So aren't you disagreeing with both?
Or to put in another way, wouldn't it be fair to say you're more in agreement with what Carolyn Hax says to "Optimistic" in this column where it conflicts with what's said in the NT and Church teaching?
I would only agree with her to a point. I think that God wants us to be healthy.
I have heard that God wanted us to be preternaturally healthy.
What's the health risk in following what the NT says and the Church teaches?
That might be a question to ask people who were slaves throughout the Church's history when the Church stated that its own teaching and the NT taught that slavery was AOK.
Now, with the use of "relativism," the Church teaches that the its own teaching and that of the NT state that slavery is bad.
Please show us which DOGMATIC teaching of the Church approved slavery.
Since the no-forn/no-adultery laws ARE dogmatic, we're sure that your comparison is legitimate.
Eh?
"That might be a question to ask people who were slaves..."
You implied you had a health-related basis for your critique of a Church teaching. So I'm asking you if you have one or not.
It's implied in the original post.
We agree it's implied. I'm asking if you can provide an explicit health-related basis for your critique of this Church teaching.
A very good Catholic resource is: "Human Sexuality: New Directions in American Catholic Thought." It's from 1977 and by the Catholic Theological Society of America. I want to say it was a study commissioned by the US Bishops, but I could be wrong about that (God forbid). The Milwaukee Public Library as well as the local Catholic universities and seminaries have copies available to check out.
I assume that means you read it. If that left you unable to provide a basis for the position you're taking, how is it a resource?
two divorced (annulments) people lay in bed together. no sexual intercourse, both are 60 and children can not be made. they kiss, hug, can it go any further. oral sex?she touches him, he touches her. is it all a mortal sin? someone please answer this with dogma proof. I am a good catholic and do not want her to drag me into sin (if it is) at this point in my life.
The Catholic Catechism defines fornication, but there is no "wiggle room" because there are explicit commands against fornication in both the Old and New Testaments. Whether or not the reason is spelled out boldly in either isn't really the point so much as obedience is the point. If one is not committed to doing the will of God, claiming a Catholic identity or going to church is pointless. At the last day, Jesus said that there will be those who confessed His name, but who He will tell that He never knew them because they were workers of iniquity. This should make us all repent of our sin (this writer included!) and instead of attempting to figure out ways to wriggle out of God's commands, set our hearts to conform to them.
Also, the fact that many people believe that fornication is OK has nothing to do with God's judgment on the matter. The way that leads to death is broad and many travel it, as Christ also said. Dear blogger, I speak as one who has had to turn away from sin to follow Christ--forsake this nonsense about the loopholes left in the Catechism and honor God through your obedience to His commands.
The Catholic Catechism defines fornication, but there is no "wiggle room" because there are explicit commands against fornication in both the Old and New Testaments. Whether or not the reason is spelled out boldly in either isn't really the point so much as obedience is the point. If one is not committed to doing the will of God, claiming a Catholic identity or going to church is pointless. At the last day, Jesus said that there will be those who confessed His name, but who He will tell that He never knew them because they were workers of iniquity. This should make us all repent of our sin and instead of attempting to figure out ways to wriggle out of God's commands, set our hearts to conform to them.
Also, the fact that many people believe that fornication is OK has nothing to do with God's judgment on the matter. The way that leads to death is broad and many travel it, as Christ also said. Dear blogger, I speak as one who has had to turn away from sin to follow Christ--forsake this nonsense about the loopholes left in the Catechism and honor God through your obedience to His commands.
Post a Comment